I received the following from someone who took exception to my post regarding differences between the Presbyterian Church in America and the Presbyterian Church of the U.S.A. I'll reply to each paragraph as follows. Disclaimer: Some of my opinions may seem sexist and bigoted if taken the wrong way. I assure you, I am neither a sexist nor a bigot; I simply believe what the Bible says and I'm sticking to my guns on this.
The PCUSA's Constitution does not allow unrepententant and practicing homosexuals to legally be ordained or hold Church Office.
I'll admit when I'm wrong and I will admit to that now but to a point. Yes, it's true that the P.C.U.S.A.'s Constituation does not allow unrepentant and practicing homosexuals to be legally ordained as ministers or to hold church office. However, I have heard of P.C.U.S.A. churches that have tried to ordain homosexuals as Elders, Deacons, etc. Just because the official stance of the denomination is against it doesn't mean that some churches within won't try it. To me, that's disturbing.
With regard to ordaining women, perhaps you should take a closer look at Romans 16 where Paul commends Julias, a women, as a fellow worker and an apostle. Or maybe you should look at 1 Corinthians 11 where Paul talks about women leading worship and preaching (same thing as "prophesying".
I found no mention of a woman named "Julias" in Romans 16 but I did find one about someone named Junias.
Quoting Romans 12:7:
Greet Andronicus and Junias, my relatives who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles and they were in Christ before I was.
To me, that's pretty vague. A basic definition of an apostle is someone who was with Jesus and was sent out by Him to spread the Gospel (the 12, BTW, were all male) or someone who was with Jesus later, saw his miracles and taught about him. However, Junias, according to
this (I found it by doing a
Google search for Junias) , probably was not a woman; rather, Junias was more than likely a man. According to
ChristianAnswers.net, Junias was "the name of a
Jewish Christian man in
Rome who was imprisoned with
Paul and Andronicus." And, "it is not absolutely clear whether this name is masculine or feminine. If feminine, there is a possibility that this was the wife or sister of Andronicus. However, in the context of the situation described, it seems more likely that Junia was simply another man. This seems to be the assumption of most scholars."
So much for that argument.
As far as 1 Corinthians 12, Paul makes no mention about any woman leading worship. It does say that women can pray and prophesy, but what the passage mainly deals with is women and men praying and prophesing with their heads covered or uncovered (I believe this means hair or maybe hats), as the case may be.
From
Bible.com, this is the N.I.V. translation of the passage in question:
3Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. 4Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. 5And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head--it is just as though her head were shaved. 6If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head. 7A man ought not to cover his head,[
2] since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. 8For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; 9neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. 10For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head. 11In the Lord, however, woman is not independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. 12For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman. But everything comes from God. 13Judge for yourselves: Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? 14Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him, 15but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For long hair is given to her as a covering. 16If anyone wants to be contentious about this, we have no other practice--nor do the churches of God.
From what I read here, the Bible says that women can (obviously) pray and prophesy. However, based just on that, I'm not so sure if that's saying that women can pastor a church. Let's look a little further, shall we. Let's go to Titus, Chapter 1, where it talks about choosing an elder (a pastor is considered an elder, as he is the leader of the church). Again, from
Bible.com, let's look at Titus 1, starting at verse 6 (again, this is the N.I.V. translation):
6An elder must be blameless, the husband of but one wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient. 7Since an overseer[
2] is entrusted with God's work, he must be blameless--not overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing dishonest gain. 8Rather he must be hospitable, one who loves what is good, who is self-controlled, upright, holy and disciplined. 9He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.
The requirements for a Deacon and essentially the same.
Here's some food for thought (at least, as far as women being able to pastor a church): How could a woman be "the husband of but one wife"? Anyone? That's what I thought.
In other words, a woman pastoring a church does not go along with what the Bible outlines as requirements for a leadership role in the church. Sorry, Charley.
One last thing to consider. Why is it that the location of the Churches that formed the original PCA all came from areas with the highest concentration of slaves in the antebellum south? You can figure it out if you go back to the original documents surrounding the founding of the PCA. The orginal fathers of the PCA were racist bigots.
You stuck a chord very near and dear to my heart when you said that (not only am I a member of the P.C.A. church, I'm also from
Mississippi). I resent that statement 100% and I must say, sir or ma'am, you have alot of nerve making such a statement especially without letting yourself be known. I'm not ashamed of my views and I proudly put my name after every post on this blog so there's no question who I am. Maybe you should consider that the P.C.U.S.A., from what I can gather, was started in the nothern part of the country, which is more liberal. The south is more conservative, therefore wouldn't accept some of the doctrine that the P.C.U.S.A. is pushing (I'll get to that in a minute). Calling the founders of the PCA "racist bigots" seems very brash. Tell me, where did you get your information? I don't seem to be able to find any of it. Maybe because it doesn't exist? On a side note, people up north also owned slaves (George Washington and Thomas Jefferson each owned slaves); in fact, there were more slaves owned under the United States flag than were ever owned under the Confederate flag (that's a fact, check it out if you don't believe me). And the north is more segregated than the south ever has been. Let's look at all the schools up here with nothing but black students. Let's look at Harlam. Need I continue?
Now let's talk about some things that I found on the
P.C.U.S.A.'s website that I take exception to.
The following is taken from the P.C.U.S.A's
Women in the Church page:
"The first ordination of women as elders in this denomination actually occurred in 1962. As ministers, women were ordained beginning 1965."
This is blantly against what Paul teaches us about the qualifications of a leader in the church. A denomination that will blantly go against what the Bible teaches should not call themselves a Bible believing denomination.
Next, let's look at their stance on
sin and salvation:
"Presbyterians believe it is through the action of God working in us that we become aware of our sinfulness and our need for God's mercy and forgiveness. Just as a parent is quick to welcome a wayward child who has repented of rebellion, God is willing to forgive our sins if we but confess them and ask for forgiveness in the name of Christ."
Maybe I'm missing something, but it appears to me that the P.C.U.S.A. does not believe that we need to confess Jesus as our savior to be forgiven. Paul writes in Romans 3:22-26: "This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonistrate his justice, because in his forbeadance he had left the sings committed beforehand unpunished--he did it to demonistrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus." In other words, we need not only to confess our sins but also to believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sins and rose again on the third day as a testiment against death. The P.C.U.S.A.'s above doctrine does not say this. This also disturbs me.
Again, I may have missed something with the "lack of intellectual ability" that the commenter seems to think I have. But that's how I see it based on what's written.
So that's my stance. As you can see, I have Scripture to back up every argument I've made tonight. Again, I hope some of this didn't seem sexist or bigoted; rather, this is what I believe based on what the Bible says. If that's not politically correct or, "hip", then that's too bad.
--Jonathan